Sydde
Apr 22, 10:25 PM
someone hasn't posted in that thread for 5 months ... why would people all of a sudden want to revive it ... today we have this one.
Because it is the third longest example of drift on PRSI (for now) and since appleguy123 started that one, of course he wants it to continue.
Because it is the third longest example of drift on PRSI (for now) and since appleguy123 started that one, of course he wants it to continue.
hunkaburningluv
Apr 9, 06:04 AM
Apple will buy Nintendo eventually.
It's over for Nintendo.
Get ready for the iwii
I doubt it - ninty are make some serious money on every console/handheld unit sold, they are set for the foreseeable future. IMO, while the iOS is great for short bursts of gaming, it will never replace a dedicated gaming machine
Doesn't matter. Apple took in two head gaming executives. Whether they called them up or were called up, they now have major gaming players in their family. It's a pretty clear sign that they will be getting into gaming in some way.
when they get Miyamoto or Iwata, then I'll be interested
These people are fleeing the "yellow light of death” on PS3 or "red ring of death' on 360. The consoles are so poorly made that broken PS3's seldomly fetch $50 on eBay.
Apple has a real opportunity to make a name in gaming as gamers know quality and appreciate being taken seriously.
that's well, ********, to be honest, RROD has pretty much been eliminated and YLOD wasn't particularly widespread....
It's over for Nintendo.
Get ready for the iwii
I doubt it - ninty are make some serious money on every console/handheld unit sold, they are set for the foreseeable future. IMO, while the iOS is great for short bursts of gaming, it will never replace a dedicated gaming machine
Doesn't matter. Apple took in two head gaming executives. Whether they called them up or were called up, they now have major gaming players in their family. It's a pretty clear sign that they will be getting into gaming in some way.
when they get Miyamoto or Iwata, then I'll be interested
These people are fleeing the "yellow light of death” on PS3 or "red ring of death' on 360. The consoles are so poorly made that broken PS3's seldomly fetch $50 on eBay.
Apple has a real opportunity to make a name in gaming as gamers know quality and appreciate being taken seriously.
that's well, ********, to be honest, RROD has pretty much been eliminated and YLOD wasn't particularly widespread....
Bakey
Jul 12, 01:47 AM
I guess time will tell, but Apple needs to get something kickass out the door around WWDC. I think we have all been waiting for hte final piece in the puzzle: pro laptops - covered, consumer laptops - covered, consumer desktop - covered, pro desktops - waiting...
Pro desktops are not quite the last piece of the puzzle! PowerMac replacements and xServes are all that are needed to make "the circle complete".
The iBook, PowerBook, iMac, eMac and Mac mini have all had/have their Intel equivalents as we all know... here's to waiting! And like so many on these forums my CC is clear and ready to melt... ;)
I wonder I they put a Xeon in a Mac will it come with Intergrated graphics :confused: ;)
I sure hope Apple don't put intergrated graphics in the Mac Pros as ANY sort of an option......
I guess they may install integrated graphic chipsets as an option for the 'new' range of xServes [although I'm guessing IG won't be an option - rather they're already there with option of over-riding them via a dedicated graphics card]; I'm obviously speculating and thinking along the lines that the majority of xServe installs are simply that 'installs' and not graphic workhorses, etc.
Either way, the countdown to WWDC has begun...!! :D
Pro desktops are not quite the last piece of the puzzle! PowerMac replacements and xServes are all that are needed to make "the circle complete".
The iBook, PowerBook, iMac, eMac and Mac mini have all had/have their Intel equivalents as we all know... here's to waiting! And like so many on these forums my CC is clear and ready to melt... ;)
I wonder I they put a Xeon in a Mac will it come with Intergrated graphics :confused: ;)
I sure hope Apple don't put intergrated graphics in the Mac Pros as ANY sort of an option......
I guess they may install integrated graphic chipsets as an option for the 'new' range of xServes [although I'm guessing IG won't be an option - rather they're already there with option of over-riding them via a dedicated graphics card]; I'm obviously speculating and thinking along the lines that the majority of xServe installs are simply that 'installs' and not graphic workhorses, etc.
Either way, the countdown to WWDC has begun...!! :D
Multimedia
Oct 25, 12:33 PM
Just noticed Apple has added 750GB HDs to the Mac Pro configure page recently. Only a few weeks left 'til the Dual Clovertown Mac Pros ship.
2.33GHz C2D MacBook Pros announced yesterday shipping today. Only MacBook & mini left to complete the Core 2 Duo transition. Should be all in place by Thanksgiving including 8-core Mac Pro. Very exciting. :)
2.33GHz C2D MacBook Pros announced yesterday shipping today. Only MacBook & mini left to complete the Core 2 Duo transition. Should be all in place by Thanksgiving including 8-core Mac Pro. Very exciting. :)
Huntn
Mar 15, 08:20 PM
Once again my mind has been boggled on the Rachel Maddow show. Tonight she is talking about the problems at shutdown Japanese reactors, reactors that I think were shutdown before the earthquake, not problems with the reactors themselves, but problems with the HUGE POOLS of spent fuel rods, with accumulations of fuel rods in far larger amounts than what is found in an individual reactor. According to her, they need to be cooled for up to ten years before they can be put into dry storage. Having lost their cooling water they could be more dangerous than a reactor cause of the quantity of rods and they are heating up and causing explosions potentially releasing radioactive particles into the environment.
Based on what I said in post #193. Nuclear Reactors can never be truly shutdown. *Without* a continuous flow of cooling water they become dangerous and self destructive very quickly. See this link: The Bane of Nuclear Power- Waste Storage (http://library.thinkquest.org/17940/texts/nuclear_waste_storage/nuclear_waste_storage.html).
Based on what I said in post #193. Nuclear Reactors can never be truly shutdown. *Without* a continuous flow of cooling water they become dangerous and self destructive very quickly. See this link: The Bane of Nuclear Power- Waste Storage (http://library.thinkquest.org/17940/texts/nuclear_waste_storage/nuclear_waste_storage.html).
ezekielrage_99
Sep 26, 12:30 AM
What the hell am I going to do with 8 cores??? :-D
Play WoW and CoD...... :confused:
That's what I was thinking of ;)
Play WoW and CoD...... :confused:
That's what I was thinking of ;)
AndroidfoLife
Apr 20, 08:21 PM
Once you use Windows, you are doing something stupid :D
Well not really, I guess if you want a computer that is cheap and weak, you can get a Windows computer.
My Windows PC is not cheap. I built it my self it is made of better parts then any apple computer made. It is also fast as hell for what i use it for (Videogames). Please do not generalize all non-mac pcs and for the love of anything right in the world do not compare an OS to hardware.
Applying a cost to tethering is your carriers choice.
In many many places tethering comes for free on the iPhone. Certainly does for me and I'm with Australia's most abusive carrier.
If your carrier allows free tether on one phone but not another isn't that anti-competitive behavior?
Its build right into the OS to allow tethering for Androids. I am not sure how exactly it is performed on iOS.
This is the company who is in court saying that App Store is a registered brand name, and thou shalt have no other App Stores.
Then they themselves say that THEIR App Store is the largest.
Hippoc... hypocr... how was it spelled again?
The android market has been growing at a faster rate then the Appstore. It will react to the growing amount of users on the platform. But what i am about to say complete makes the last comment null. It does not matter how many apps it matter how many apps are usable. I will count a giant app store as a plus when anyone can put all those apps on their phone.
The experience is degraded because Android lacks the Apple-integrated experience that we care about. Saying Android can do anything iPhone can do is like saying that both an Hyundai Accent and a Ferrari will get you from A to B. Yes, both can do this, but it's the experience that matters. The point isn't the fact that both have apps and both can browse the internet. Most people don't care about overclocking their phones or installing custom ROMs or "software freedom," whatever that means.
I'm a former two-year Android user. The transition to iPhone 4 was great.
I can say that the Google integrated experience is what I care about or if I Chose lack of one.
unless you really really want widgets and Flash, otherwise I can't think of anything better on Android.
Btw: my Prius gets much better gas mileage than a Ferrari. :)
I don't think apple really has any think better on android. Android does have a file system, better notification and real multitasking.
Well not really, I guess if you want a computer that is cheap and weak, you can get a Windows computer.
My Windows PC is not cheap. I built it my self it is made of better parts then any apple computer made. It is also fast as hell for what i use it for (Videogames). Please do not generalize all non-mac pcs and for the love of anything right in the world do not compare an OS to hardware.
Applying a cost to tethering is your carriers choice.
In many many places tethering comes for free on the iPhone. Certainly does for me and I'm with Australia's most abusive carrier.
If your carrier allows free tether on one phone but not another isn't that anti-competitive behavior?
Its build right into the OS to allow tethering for Androids. I am not sure how exactly it is performed on iOS.
This is the company who is in court saying that App Store is a registered brand name, and thou shalt have no other App Stores.
Then they themselves say that THEIR App Store is the largest.
Hippoc... hypocr... how was it spelled again?
The android market has been growing at a faster rate then the Appstore. It will react to the growing amount of users on the platform. But what i am about to say complete makes the last comment null. It does not matter how many apps it matter how many apps are usable. I will count a giant app store as a plus when anyone can put all those apps on their phone.
The experience is degraded because Android lacks the Apple-integrated experience that we care about. Saying Android can do anything iPhone can do is like saying that both an Hyundai Accent and a Ferrari will get you from A to B. Yes, both can do this, but it's the experience that matters. The point isn't the fact that both have apps and both can browse the internet. Most people don't care about overclocking their phones or installing custom ROMs or "software freedom," whatever that means.
I'm a former two-year Android user. The transition to iPhone 4 was great.
I can say that the Google integrated experience is what I care about or if I Chose lack of one.
unless you really really want widgets and Flash, otherwise I can't think of anything better on Android.
Btw: my Prius gets much better gas mileage than a Ferrari. :)
I don't think apple really has any think better on android. Android does have a file system, better notification and real multitasking.
Silentwave
Jul 11, 11:22 PM
there's no way apple's going to use woodcrest in the upcoming powermac rev because there are no motherboards for socket 771 (woodcrest) that support anything above pci express 8x. powermac's are going to be high end workstations for print, graphics, and media shops, 8x pci express won't cut it.
look around at all the motherboard manufacturers (nvidia, ati, asus, msi, etc) none of them have a woodcrest platform available. apple always uses some other motherboard vendor like supermicro.
the only way i see this happening is if apple ships the powermac in 2007 when the socket 771 boards start using 16x pci express.
just wondering, have you not seen my posts on the dell workstation? that has dual woodcrests, and, be still my heart 16X PCI EXPRESS! :) That's how it has the quadro FX 4500 video card. And you can even get a version that has a riser for a 2nd PCI-Express 16X slot so you can have 2x the Quadro 4500!
Also, According to the articles on the appleinsider site, apple has had INTEL doing the logic board.
look around at all the motherboard manufacturers (nvidia, ati, asus, msi, etc) none of them have a woodcrest platform available. apple always uses some other motherboard vendor like supermicro.
the only way i see this happening is if apple ships the powermac in 2007 when the socket 771 boards start using 16x pci express.
just wondering, have you not seen my posts on the dell workstation? that has dual woodcrests, and, be still my heart 16X PCI EXPRESS! :) That's how it has the quadro FX 4500 video card. And you can even get a version that has a riser for a 2nd PCI-Express 16X slot so you can have 2x the Quadro 4500!
Also, According to the articles on the appleinsider site, apple has had INTEL doing the logic board.
dawindmg08
Apr 13, 02:34 AM
For those of you complaining that this update isn't "Pro" enough, please read through the list of features on this page:
Supermeet Live Blog (http://www.photographybay.com/2011/04/12/final-cut-pro-user-group-supermeet-liveblog/)
There are tons of great ideas here, and I already see a lot of things that will speed up my workflow. There are tools that I have to buy as expensive plugins which are now standard. And simple, common sense approaches to media management that I'm surprised we've worked without them this long (Video and audio LOCKED from ingest? No more sound out of sync? Yes please).
And yet, you all look at the UI and go "eh, it's iMovie Pro". Bitch, please.
And they haven't 'dropped' all the other apps, they just didn't announce (http://www.loopinsight.com/2011/04/12/apple-says-stay-tuned-for-other-final-cut-studio-apps/) anything yet.Hopefully the pricing will be competitive with the other NLE suites and those of us upgrading from the current FCS won't feel ripped off. So just be patient, wait until June and see how it all shakes out...
Supermeet Live Blog (http://www.photographybay.com/2011/04/12/final-cut-pro-user-group-supermeet-liveblog/)
There are tons of great ideas here, and I already see a lot of things that will speed up my workflow. There are tools that I have to buy as expensive plugins which are now standard. And simple, common sense approaches to media management that I'm surprised we've worked without them this long (Video and audio LOCKED from ingest? No more sound out of sync? Yes please).
And yet, you all look at the UI and go "eh, it's iMovie Pro". Bitch, please.
And they haven't 'dropped' all the other apps, they just didn't announce (http://www.loopinsight.com/2011/04/12/apple-says-stay-tuned-for-other-final-cut-studio-apps/) anything yet.Hopefully the pricing will be competitive with the other NLE suites and those of us upgrading from the current FCS won't feel ripped off. So just be patient, wait until June and see how it all shakes out...
the vj
Apr 15, 10:03 AM
A few months ago I deleted and started to reject all the people I knew from high school in my Facebook, well, the ones that after almost 20 years came to me to add me as a friend but they were the ones that make my life a living hell and used me and took advantaged and then they turned their back on me.
You know what... get lost!
You know what... get lost!
DroidRules
Apr 28, 09:22 AM
I'm replying just so you don't get the slightest idea in your head that you've won, or that I'm retreating. I'm sitting with my entire office laughing at your naivete and misunderstanding of what modern computer hardware is. Keep digging your hole.
Maybe your employer would like to know the entire office is slacking and on MR instead of working...... nice way to burn company time with your pathetic pecker measuring.
Maybe your employer would like to know the entire office is slacking and on MR instead of working...... nice way to burn company time with your pathetic pecker measuring.
ddtlm
Oct 10, 03:50 PM
MacCoaster:
(Don't be offended if I repeat myself a few times, I want to make sure everyone gets it. Not trying to say anything about you in particular.)
Anyway, you missed my point. I know very well that the G4 is at a hardware disadvantage. I pretty much said that when you see a G4 being beat by margins greater than 4x or 5x, then you can be pretty sure there is ALSO, note ALSO, a software disadvantage. Hopefully everyone will see what I meant that time. :)
I'm glad to see that many people here agree that the G4 isn't really a faster chip than the x86 competition, but I want to see moderation and understanding of the "benchmarks" that have popped up showing an unbelievably bad situation for the G4.
Remember folks, if the test shows a G4 slower than a P4 per clock cycle then the test probably is handing the software advantage to the P4. Note, for perfect clarity, that I said per clock cycle performance and not overall performance.
(Don't be offended if I repeat myself a few times, I want to make sure everyone gets it. Not trying to say anything about you in particular.)
Anyway, you missed my point. I know very well that the G4 is at a hardware disadvantage. I pretty much said that when you see a G4 being beat by margins greater than 4x or 5x, then you can be pretty sure there is ALSO, note ALSO, a software disadvantage. Hopefully everyone will see what I meant that time. :)
I'm glad to see that many people here agree that the G4 isn't really a faster chip than the x86 competition, but I want to see moderation and understanding of the "benchmarks" that have popped up showing an unbelievably bad situation for the G4.
Remember folks, if the test shows a G4 slower than a P4 per clock cycle then the test probably is handing the software advantage to the P4. Note, for perfect clarity, that I said per clock cycle performance and not overall performance.
Hikkadwa
Apr 13, 02:24 AM
Based on the screenshots -This looks like its another car crash bit of software. I bet the guy who destroyed iMovie 06 has something to do with this. Lets just hope I'm wrong.
MacBoobsPro
Oct 26, 10:36 AM
16 cores in 2007
32 cores in 2008
64 cores in 2009
128 cores in 2010
You want to wait 'til 2010 at the soonest? :rolleyes:
4 years. Cant wait. My emailing exploits will just zip along.
How many chips would it span though?
32 cores in 2008
64 cores in 2009
128 cores in 2010
You want to wait 'til 2010 at the soonest? :rolleyes:
4 years. Cant wait. My emailing exploits will just zip along.
How many chips would it span though?
Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 29, 07:43 PM
What about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling#1975_Newsweek_article
Cooling, warming, cooling, warming...Sheesh, it's almost like it's mother nature, NOT us. Doesn't she know it's US! And that little ice age in the 16th to 18th centuries? what's that all about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_ice_age
Again, sheesh. It's like mother nature is doing it herself!!! And jeez, how about the greenhouse effect? I thought it was bad until my college Blue Planet teacher told us that if we didn't have it, the planet would be one big snowball. None of the students knew what to think, after years of telling us greenhouse effects are bad. Thank god all those carbon dioxide emissions are breathed up by plants...
ehm, it is slightly more complex than that.
Think of earth as one big very very complex dynamical system. You change one varible and all the other variables will change too. If you are lucky the system will converge back to the original equilibrium. However, if you change a/some variables sufficiently much, the system will:
a) converge to a new equlibrium
or
b) oscillate
All serious climate researchers claim that we are about to change a/some variables sufficiently much (read. CO2) The fact that we already have chopped down large protions of the rain forrest doesnt help us since CO2 are used in photosynthesis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling#1975_Newsweek_article
Cooling, warming, cooling, warming...Sheesh, it's almost like it's mother nature, NOT us. Doesn't she know it's US! And that little ice age in the 16th to 18th centuries? what's that all about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_ice_age
Again, sheesh. It's like mother nature is doing it herself!!! And jeez, how about the greenhouse effect? I thought it was bad until my college Blue Planet teacher told us that if we didn't have it, the planet would be one big snowball. None of the students knew what to think, after years of telling us greenhouse effects are bad. Thank god all those carbon dioxide emissions are breathed up by plants...
ehm, it is slightly more complex than that.
Think of earth as one big very very complex dynamical system. You change one varible and all the other variables will change too. If you are lucky the system will converge back to the original equilibrium. However, if you change a/some variables sufficiently much, the system will:
a) converge to a new equlibrium
or
b) oscillate
All serious climate researchers claim that we are about to change a/some variables sufficiently much (read. CO2) The fact that we already have chopped down large protions of the rain forrest doesnt help us since CO2 are used in photosynthesis.
The Beatles
Apr 9, 01:00 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)
Poaching suggests illegal, secret, stealing or other misadventure that is underhanded and sneaky.
From what I've read so far, and I'd be glad for someone to show me what I've missed, Apple had the job positions already advertised and for all we know these individuals, realizing their companies were sliding, applied to - and were received by - apple which replied with open arms. Does anyone have evidence to the contrary? Would that be poaching? Is this forum, like some others, doing headline greed?
Michael
Agreed. No sensationalism please. Other sites do this to manipulate their members into clicking on the link.
Poaching suggests illegal, secret, stealing or other misadventure that is underhanded and sneaky.
From what I've read so far, and I'd be glad for someone to show me what I've missed, Apple had the job positions already advertised and for all we know these individuals, realizing their companies were sliding, applied to - and were received by - apple which replied with open arms. Does anyone have evidence to the contrary? Would that be poaching? Is this forum, like some others, doing headline greed?
Michael
Agreed. No sensationalism please. Other sites do this to manipulate their members into clicking on the link.
R.Perez
Mar 13, 05:13 PM
No it couldn't. That would require grid energy storage technology that currently hasn't been invented yet.
Look up base load generation. There are only a few sources of generation that fall under this category. Nuclear and coal are among them. Most renewables are not.
I love when people don't read threads....
this was already posted, way to go...
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-to-use-solar-energy-at-night
Look up base load generation. There are only a few sources of generation that fall under this category. Nuclear and coal are among them. Most renewables are not.
I love when people don't read threads....
this was already posted, way to go...
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-to-use-solar-energy-at-night
JFreak
Jul 12, 05:39 AM
Well, the Mini got more expensive, but it's capabilities went WAY up. Optical audio in and out, twice the USB-ports (fixing the two biggest complaints about the old Mini)
Way, costs about $1 for Apple to fix it. Great!
... built-in wireless, about twice as fast CPU and Core Image compliant video.
You cannot put a price tag for components such as CPU and GPU that get updated with every single hardware revision. Yes, in time they become more capable with every revision, but the relative price of such components does not change that much. The built-in wireless on the other hand is something of extra value; however, Apple cuts its own costs of eliminating an option, so it should not cost the customer that much extra.
Comparing price and capabilities, The Mini just got a whole lot cheaper :). The low-end Mini costs the same as the old hi-end Mini, but the new low-end Mini is a lot better than the old hi-end Mini.
You should compare dollars to dollars when you say one is cheaper than another. You buy items with dollars and that's it. You look at the numbers and say that smaller value is cheaper. Didn't your mother teach you that?
your all looking at the server specs which have no need for more than 8x pci-e, if that.
At what point servers began to demand less than workstations or regular desktops? Server-grade hardware (SCSI cards for example) are 8x pcie, so I expect nothing less from Apple server hardware. Anything less would be a joke.
Way, costs about $1 for Apple to fix it. Great!
... built-in wireless, about twice as fast CPU and Core Image compliant video.
You cannot put a price tag for components such as CPU and GPU that get updated with every single hardware revision. Yes, in time they become more capable with every revision, but the relative price of such components does not change that much. The built-in wireless on the other hand is something of extra value; however, Apple cuts its own costs of eliminating an option, so it should not cost the customer that much extra.
Comparing price and capabilities, The Mini just got a whole lot cheaper :). The low-end Mini costs the same as the old hi-end Mini, but the new low-end Mini is a lot better than the old hi-end Mini.
You should compare dollars to dollars when you say one is cheaper than another. You buy items with dollars and that's it. You look at the numbers and say that smaller value is cheaper. Didn't your mother teach you that?
your all looking at the server specs which have no need for more than 8x pci-e, if that.
At what point servers began to demand less than workstations or regular desktops? Server-grade hardware (SCSI cards for example) are 8x pcie, so I expect nothing less from Apple server hardware. Anything less would be a joke.
iJohnHenry
Mar 13, 05:29 PM
Bah humans in general are eejits.
Some, but otherwise I cannot fault your abuse of English. ;)
Except for you and me ...... and I'm not totally sure about you. :p
Some, but otherwise I cannot fault your abuse of English. ;)
Except for you and me ...... and I'm not totally sure about you. :p
Apple 26.2
Apr 15, 04:09 PM
Whatever differences exist, you'll get used to them.
ReyesJonathan
Feb 28, 09:21 PM
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, a cupcake is going to take down iPhone?
:D:D:D:D
:D:D:D:D
Xeperu
Apr 26, 01:15 PM
The deal with religious people is to ignore them if you disagree.
I'm a devout (pun intended) atheist and find the entire notion of a "higher being" absolutely ridiculous.
HOWEVER! I do let religious people practice their religion in peace. An anecdote I tell people goes like this.
I had a friend whose mother was dying of cancer. She prayed to her god and that gave her hope and comfort. SHe believed that her prayers helped her mom and even I didn't try to defy her. It gave her strength and no matter how ridiculous it was, I was happy that it helped her cope.
tl;dr - Practice religion, but don't bother me with it.
I'm a devout (pun intended) atheist and find the entire notion of a "higher being" absolutely ridiculous.
HOWEVER! I do let religious people practice their religion in peace. An anecdote I tell people goes like this.
I had a friend whose mother was dying of cancer. She prayed to her god and that gave her hope and comfort. SHe believed that her prayers helped her mom and even I didn't try to defy her. It gave her strength and no matter how ridiculous it was, I was happy that it helped her cope.
tl;dr - Practice religion, but don't bother me with it.
D4F
Apr 28, 07:41 AM
Next year you will see iPhones and iPods counted too. I mean you need to do all you can to make it look good to shareholders.
emac kinda guy
Aug 29, 08:19 PM
Why do these businesses have to interfere with me? We are all now showing bromated fire retardants in our blood. Who was here first and who is interfering with whom?
Why do these "tree-huggers" have to interfere with business?
Apple does what they can to have more "enviornmentally-friendly" ways of processing their products. But 4th worst?
P.S. have not read the whole thread yet - I hope I'm not repeating something someone else has said.
Why do these "tree-huggers" have to interfere with business?
Apple does what they can to have more "enviornmentally-friendly" ways of processing their products. But 4th worst?
P.S. have not read the whole thread yet - I hope I'm not repeating something someone else has said.
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